This podcast isn’t personal advice. If you’re not sure what’s right for you, seek advice. Tax rules can change and benefits depend on personal circumstances.
Use the player icons above to listen on your favourite podcast app, or read the full transcript below.
Investments rise and fall in value, so investors could make a loss.
Full podcast episode transcript
[0:09] Susannah Streeter: Hello and welcome to Switch Your Money On, with me, Susannah Streeter – Head of Money and Markets here at Hargreaves Lansdown.
[0:15] Sarah Coles: And me, Sarah Coles – Head of Personal Finance – and it is great to be back in the studio. Actually, for me, it is also a nice surprise to be back in the studio because, while I was off, I kept getting loads of scam messages – and looking as if I was looking for work – and there were these scammers who were trying to encourage me to pay them. So, I was quite worried that my pass might not work when...
[0:30] Susannah Streeter: [Laughs]
[0:30] Sarah Coles: ...I go back into the building – but it’s all fine!
[0:33] Susannah Streeter: There is so much going around at the moment. Of course, we’ve had these really high-profile cyberattacks on the likes of Marks and Spencer, and Co-op, and Harrods – and other retailers as well – and, of course, all of these warnings that individuals really have to be on their guard, right now, because of the level of activity out there.
So, that’s what we are gonna be delving in today in this episode. We’re gonna be focusing on cyberattacks but also scams and fraud – and how you can protect yourself – and I’m really pleased to say, we have Will Guyatt – who’s a Technology Correspondent – who is gonna join us on the podcast.
Will, it’s been a super-busy time for you, hasn’t it?
[1:13] Will Guyatt: I’ve never known a time like this, where we’ve had so many different stories relating to cyberattacks – and it’s a broad field too. So, we’re gonna talk a bit about what you can do to protect yourself – we’re gonna talk about the threats that are out there. And, slightly terrifyingly – and don’t have nightmares – we’re gonna talk about what’s coming next as well.
[1:31] Sarah Coles: We also have Helen Morrissey here – who’s our Head of Retirement Analysis – and you’re gonna tell us a bit about what’s happening to pensions in this sort of space.
[1:37] Helen Morrissey: Absolutely – I mean, scammers really do target pensioners, so I’m really looking forward to talking about some of the key things that people need to be aware of to keep their pensions safe.
[1:47] Susannah Streeter: But you can’t have missed what’s been going on at Marks and Spencer, can you? If you are a frequent shopper – as I am – I particularly like the deli treats and their wine selection. There have been gaps on shelves – I popped in the other day and there are still ongoing problems in some stores – or perhaps it was the fact that [laughs] there was this big rush on products due to the lovely, sunny weather we’ve been having – but we do know that their website is still down in terms of online ordering. You can browse online, but you can’t actually make orders online.
This is all stemming from this cyberattack that hit the retailer back on the Easter weekend – and it is still continuing – and we have heard, in the latest update, that it is not expecting online orders to resume until July. So, this is a real headache! The company’s estimating it could cost it £300m.
[2:39] Sarah Coles: And I suppose the problem you have is that they’ve spent so much money building up that side of the business – particularly after the lockdowns, when the online became so important – and now they’re losing all that business, so it must be really difficult for companies.
[2:50] Susannah Streeter: Really difficult – but, actually, Marks and Spencer is coming from a pretty resilient position, because we’ve had its annual results out, showing underlying pre-tax profits of a rise of just over 22% – and sales, overall, up 1.6%. So, it’s come from a position of strength – and it will be hoping that, over the longer term – because this really hit the first start of this new financial year – that things will improve – and it’s hoping to mitigate some of the disruption and the impact that £300m – by insurance, but also maybe cost deficiencies, elsewhere.
We’ll have to see how all of this plays out. It does remain to be seen just what will be the reputational damage for the company.
[3:34] Sarah Coles: I was gonna say, it’s not just Marks and Spencer’s, though, is it? This is a problem for a lot of retailers – it seems to be something that’s spreading as well.
[3:41] Susannah Streeter: Marks and Spencer certainly isn’t the first – and will not be the last of retailers or companies affected, I’m sure. You have Co-op which has been affected as well – it’s been facing supply-chain issues. Harrods appeared to have been attacked – Adidas as well. It is a reputational issue – it’s a trust issue – because, of course, when people’s data are stolen by hackers... that can really cause a trust issue – and, at least, with Marks and Spencer, they do say that no useable card details were accessed, but they are urging people to change their passwords – even though passwords weren’t accessed either. But it’s just a pretty prudent move, anyway, to make sure that you change your password when you log on.
[4:26] Sarah Coles: And, I guess, it’s the fabulous world of passwords... I know I’m supposed to have at least 6,000 of them – and they get changed on a daily basis! And, every time I change it, it says it can’t match any of my previous six. So, obviously, in my head, I’ve got 4,000!
[4:36] Susannah Streeter: It is such a headache, isn’t it? – ...
[4:38] Sarah Coles: [Laughs]
[4:39] Susannah Streeter: ...but I think it’s so important.
[4:41] Sarah Coles: Yeah – and there are lots of different ways in which these things can affect people who are just, every day, trying to do their shopping – but there are also this whole other world of scams. So, the figures that have come out recently – just about in terms of how scams have changed.
So, we’ve seen a drop in the number of investment scams, for example, but we’ve seen a really big rise in the amount of money that’s been taken. And they will, sometimes, use the names of reputable companies in order to take advantage of people – and one of the ones that we’ve seen emerging has been this idea of taking advantage of Peter Hargreaves – and for Stephen Lansdown – and what they’ve done is... they’ve put these social media posts out. One of them’s actually deepfake – which is quite an odd thing to see – and they’re pretending to be from the founders of Hargreaves Lansdown – and they’re pretending that they’ve set up these WhatsApp groups in order to try and encourage people to sign up to the groups.
Now, what these scams tend to be is a ‘Pump-and-dump’ scheme. So, once you’ve actually signed up, they’ll use that contact detail to get in touch and get you invest in things that really have very little value. But that’ll pump up the price because they’ll push more people into it – and then, at the point at which it’s gone up, they will then sell, and cut, and run. So, you’ll be left with something that’s pretty much worthless – and they will have made a load of money off the back of it.
So, something that’s very key at the moment is... we’re really saying it’s very important to know that neither Peter or Stephen are on social media. They don’t have any WhatsApp groups – and neither does HL – so, if you see...
[5:59] Susannah Streeter: It’s important...
[5:59] Sarah Coles: ...any of these things!
[5:59] Susannah Streeter: ...to stress that – ...
[6:00] Sarah Coles: [Laughs]
[6:01] Susannah Streeter: ...no official...
[6:02] Sarah Coles: Exactly.
[6:03] Susannah Streeter: ...WhatsApp group from Hargreaves Lansdown.
[6:04] Sarah Coles: So, if you see any of these things online – in any guise whatsoever – they are scams – do not sign up to them.
[6:10] Susannah Streeter: And I think the issue is that, as we go into the future – with the possibility for deepfakes to be made so easily, now – that we’re gonna see this more and more, coming up.
So, let’s bring in Will, now. Will, you’ve been analysing these trends for quite some time – d’you think we’re reaching a bit of a crisis-point when it comes to these cyberattacks – and people not quite knowing how to protect themselves?
[6:36] Will Guyatt: We’re at a difficult point in time – given that artificial intelligence and deepfakes are becoming so prolific. But we run a risk – as a society – of switching off when it comes to cybercrime because we hear about it so often. We hear about it all the time – it’s like crying wolf – and, the reality is, there are so many different forms of cybercrime.
Most of it, at the moment, is still people infecting your computer with malware – that’s getting control of your device, trying to copy your bank details – or get a view of what you’re doing on the device. And others are finding themselves stuck in these ransomware situations – like the large retailers. Mostly, it’s businesses that are being targeted by those, but also people with large amounts of data. And, what you talk about there with the deepfakes of your founders... I’ve seen those particular posts online – and it took me probably 10 to 15 seconds to work out they were completely fake.
[7:30] Susannah Streeter: And you’re an expert!
[7:32] Will Guyatt: Yes – and that’s my point. I thought they were unusual, but I also figured, ‘Oh, that might be something that one of them might have been doing.’ You find yourself in these situations – and what they do... these financial scams – most of them – like the fake WhatsApp messages from a friend in their hour of need – or your son or you grandkid at university – and they’ve lost their phone – and they need a couple-a-hundred quid to get them through – or whatever. They get people when they least expect them.
So, you have to have this lens of suspicion about you whenever you’re operating online, these days. It does start feeling a bit more like the Wild West – if you stop and look at the level of threat that we’ve now just become used to as a society.
[8:13] Susannah Streeter: I’ve seen, at Tech Cognosis, just how easy it is to create avatars – I’ve had a go, myself. You can play games online – and you can create dolls of yourself – or replicas of yourself. What part does social media play in encouraging this, d’you think?
[8:28] Will Guyatt: Well, social media is the vessel to share that stuff – and, just the last few days, on LBC – the radio station where I work – I managed to trick a presenter I’ve worked with for 15 years with a deepfake version of me in an interview. It’s somebody I speak to several times a week – and, rather than speaking over my microphone, I played in a file of a deepfake, cloned version of me – which I was able to make with a couple of hours of audio that I had saved and $20-a-month through a company. These are legally made for people who are doing voiceovers – and those kinds of things.
But you can gain these systems – and, in the example of your founders... people have probably taken audio of their interviews from places and put them into systems such as this. And the deepfake-video stuff, for example... In just the last few days, Google has announced a new system – which is called ‘Veo 3.’ This is not just a text-to-speech artificial intelligence – it’s a text-to-video artificial intelligence too – and it looks real.
Six months ago, if you put somebody eating pasta into – and asked an AI video model to generate it – you’d create something that looked nightmare-ish – it didn’t look real. Six months on, it looks like a human being – the eye movements, the mouth movements. All of this stuff, now, is moving on so quickly – and that’s what leads into the world of scams – and social media is rocket fuel for these scams.
We’ve all seen the Steven Bartlett ones – we’ve all seen the money-saving-expert ones. It’s easy for public figures to get used in these things – because they’re the types of people that society takes advice from – and all you need is a handful of people to be suckered in.
[10:08] Sarah Coles: And I guess we’ve gotta just take it on trust that we are actually listening to ‘You’ right now, ...
[10:12] Susannah Streeter: [Laughs]
[10:12] Sarah Coles: ...rather than AI version of you!
[10:14] Will Guyatt: I’m waving at you, so it is...
[10:15] Sarah Coles: [Laughs]
[10:15] Will Guyatt: ...me, I can promise – I’m real!
[10:17] Sarah Coles: So, because it’s got more difficult... because these things are more sophisticated, is it more difficult to spot – and what should people look out for?
[10:24] Will Guyatt: Yeah – it’s getting much harder to understand or spot. What you still might see in artificial intelligence models right now – and I’m talking to you in June 2025 – I’m sure it’ll be very different even by the end of this year... you might notice a certain lack of enthusiasm or monotony in the voice. It might sound almost rhythmic – the way that the computer or the artificial intelligence is intended to do it. The other dead giveaway with AI – on most forms of video that are used for deepfakes, currently – are how the mouth moves – and the eyes move. They look a bit disconnected – they use the phrase ‘Uncanny valley’ in Hollywood to describe this kind of stuff – so it doesn’t feel completely connected.
Also, some of these deepfake videos that you see... they sound like they’ve swallowed a dictionary. You find yourself in an unusual situation, where they’re using very deep, strange, technical words to describe something that could be done really simple by a human being. So, it’s just about taking time – and not instantly clicking, ‘Yeah, I’m gonna sign up to that,’ the moment you hear about an offer.
[11:26] Susannah Streeter: You mentioned earlier about how some people are being targeted by texts from grandchildren asking for money. Is there a risk here that, actually, videos of people’s children could be used and sent as though they are asking for money, d’you think? So, should we be behaving a bit like we have to behave now when you have a text from... it could be your bank, but you have to make sure that you call the bank – you get through to the right person – before taking any action at all?
[11:55] Will Guyatt: I would definitely do that now. Very recently, I was just about to go into a studio and do something live. It was something quite nerve-wracking for me – it wasn’t something I’d done before – but I received a message from my business bank – and it looked genuine – and it asked me for some details for something. It was only when I stopped and realised that the email open was ‘Hello, dear’ – and I don’t think my bank manager knows me that well.
The challenge you now face is... for all those people in foreign countries – where English isn’t their first language – who are trying these scams... artificial intelligence is gonna make these kind of grammatical errors – and these things that look a bit fishy because they don’t read or scan correctly. All of that stuff is gonna disappear.
We’re already finding that, in the same way as reputable businesses are training artificial intelligence for good work, criminals are training artificial intelligence for bad work. We’re gonna be in the weird situation, in the next few years, where the best protection against deepfakes and AI is artificial intelligence running on your system to tell you whether or not something that you’re seeing is real.
I keep having the words of my 76-year-old dad going through my head, constantly – which is, ‘There’s no such thing as a free lunch.’ That is my mantra in the back of my head whenever I get a business opportunity – or something click through that looks too good to be true because it probably still is!
[13:15] Sarah Coles: That is one of the points that still holds true – that has always held true for scams. So, any contact that’s out of the blue is something that you should be really sceptical about. And bear in mind that anything on social media is actually out of the blue... don’t think those people are your friends. If it feels like it could be too good to be true, then it probably is – it’s probably a scam. And, I guess, starting from that position that anything could be a scam is gonna be the thing that stands you in best stead for protecting yourself.
[13:39] Will Guyatt: And that’s the thing – it’s about maintaining your level of common sense when you’re using the internet. You just have to have a very much present-focus – because people are out there to try and get your information, your data, your money.
[13:52] Susannah Streeter: Will, thank you so much – it’s been great having you on the podcast. I think you might keep us awake, a little bit, at night – but maybe we should all have a big dose of reality about what is out there and how we should best protect ourselves – so thank you very much.
[14:06] Will Guyatt: Yeah – thanks for having me on. Any time you wanna talk about this sort of stuff, I’m always here.
[14:10] Susannah Streeter: Thank you. Well, another person who can really help us out with how pensioners, in particular – or those approaching retirement age should be on alert and should protect themselves – is Helen Morrissey.
Of course, you’ve been looking at lots of potential investment scams. Most recently, I’ve been reading about a whiskey-barrel investment scam... people have been losing thousands of money they’ve saved up through their lives. What should people be looking out for?
[14:36] Helen Morrissey: Yeah – it’s a massive issue, Susannah – because, when you think about it, your pension is one of the... if not, the biggest asset that you have – so this means that scammers have it really in their cross hairs. And I describe scammers as ‘Shape-shifters’ – in that they change their tactics, depending on what the environment is.
So, as you say, your whisky-barrel investment there as being a prime example. But another example, I would say, is when the pension freeze and trace reforms came in – some years back – which opened up how people could access their pension. And they were so quick off the mark – these scammers – in targeting pensioners with offers of free pension reviews, investment scams that either encouraged them to transfer their pensions – or, at least, a portion of them – which were then whisked away – and people lost large chunks of their pensions and their retirement savings.
So, if we look at what common signs of a pension scam might be, some of it goes back to what Will was saying earlier – ‘No such thing as a free lunch’ – and what you were saying also, Sarah... if you’re offered investments out of the blue – amazing returns. If it seems too good to be true, then it often is – you need to have your guard up.
Use of phrases like, ‘Pension liberation’ – using loopholes to enable you to get hold of your pensions early, for instance... are things that you really need to be careful of. So, a really key thing is that, if you’ve got a pension – at the moment, you can’t access your pension until at least the age of 55 – that’s going up to 57 in 2028. But one really common pension-investment scam is, ‘Oh, we can help you get hold of your pension that bit earlier’ – and what tends to happen is... money gets taken out, you get clobbered with a tax bill, and they’ve gone off with your money.
[16:29] Sarah Coles: I suppose one of the protections that has been put in place is the rules around cold calling about pensions. So, now that it’s been outlawed, you know that – if someone’s calling you out of the blue with any of these things that you talk about – that that is definitely a scam.
[16:40] Helen Morrissey: That’s a really important point, Sarah – and, as you say, we need to make sure that more and more people are aware of these cold-calling rules. And, as you say, if something is out of the blue... you know, no financial advisor is gonna call you out of the blue. No financial advisor is going to pressure you into making an investment decision – they would always want to talk you through it, let you make your decisions in your own time – and, if there was any kind of high-pressure sales tactics going on, that’s a real warning light.
What I would also say to people as well is that, often these scammers... they rely on you being polite – and not putting the phone down on them – or not terminating contact with them. So, what I would say is... they don’t care about you – they don’t care about taking your pension money. If someone is making you feel pressured... it’s your money – you do what you want with it. Do not think twice about terminating a phone call – stopping email-contact with somebody – letter-contact with somebody. And, if you think that an elderly relative might have been targeted, please keep an eye out for these signs as well.
[17:50] Sarah Coles: And I suppose one of the tell-tale signs is... they don’t just put you under pressure – they might tell you to keep it secret – ‘cause it’s a special deal just for you. Are there any ways that you can protect – particularly – vulnerable, older people that you know – that you worry they might be being told to keep a secret. Is that the sort of thing that people can delve into and find out more about?
[18:07] Helen Morrissey: I think the key thing is to keep those communication channels open. If you see them being a bit secretive about money, then that’s a bit of a red flag, there. Don’t push people into telling you things – you know, you might upset them – but keep those communications options open.
And, sometimes, shame comes into a lot of this as well. People get scammed not just in pensions across the board – and they’re too embarrassed to tell anybody. Always let your loved ones know that, if something has happened, they can tell you – and you can try and help them to sort it out, if that’s possible.
[18:42] Sarah Coles: And you talk about the whole, ‘If it seems too good to be true, then it probably is.’ I suppose one of the other things people find it difficult to know is what ‘Too good to be true’ looks like.
So, are there certain rules of thumb you can use if someone’s saying, ‘I’ve got this fabulous investment for your pension?’ Are there certain things that can give it away that it might be too good to be true?
[19:00] Helen Morrissey: If they’re offering things like guaranteed returns, that’s always something to be wary of. If they’re saying that they can massively outstrip the investment performance that you’re getting in your pension, then that’s also a bit of a red flag, there – because, within your workplace pension, for instance... you know, you’re there with a reputable provider – they’re putting their best endeavours into getting the best from your pension as possible – and, if someone’s coming out there, saying that they can comfortably outstrip that, then you need to be careful.
[19:29] Sarah Coles: I suppose it’s those two things together – so it’s the guarantee-side...
[19:32] Helen Morrissey: Yes!
[19:32] Sarah Coles: ...and the high returns – ‘cause, the way it always works is... if you take a risk in order to try and get better returns, you cannot have low-risk high returns – ...
[19:42] Helen Morrissey: No – ...
[19:42] Sarah Coles: ...that’s a scam.
[19:43] Helen Morrissey: ...absolutely.
[19:43] Susannah Streeter: Much of what you’re saying, Helen, really plays into investments – investment...
[19:47] Helen Morrissey: Yes!
[19:47] Susannah Streeter: ...scams, in general – if something looks too good to be true, it
probably is. Complex investment structures can be another warning light as well. This promise of really high returns for low-risk – ...
[20:00] Helen Morrissey: Yeah.
[20:01] Susannah Streeter: ...all of that should start to see red warning lights flashing!
[20:06] Helen Morrissey: Absolutely – and, as you say, that method of communication as well. Bear in mind, a financial advisor – or a pension provider – isn’t going to text you out of the blue with an amazing investment offer – sending you a random email. You’ve gotta be aware of these things.
[20:22] Sarah Coles: And, if people are approached by someone – and they think, ‘Oh, it’s probably a scam’ – presumably, they can go to a reputable financial advisor instead. But are there any other options for where they can actually get full help?
[20:33] Helen Morrissey: As you say, you’ve got financial advice for those people who feel that they need it – and can afford it. Then, you’ve also got guidance services, such as Pension Wise – which is government-backed. It’s not financial advice – it is guidance – but you can go to them if you’re over the age of 50 – and say, ‘I’ve been contacted by this person – saying ‘This and this’ – what d’you think?’ I’m sure that they would be able to help you.
If you have any concerns that you have been approached by a fraudster, don’t be scared to report it – go to Action Fraud – because, the more detail that they can get together on these things, the better.
[21:09] Sarah Coles: And, presumably, ‘101’ for the police as well – just to report it to them.
[21:12] Helen Morrissey: Absolutely – yeah. If you feel that you are being really put under pressure, do get the police involved, if you feel that you need to.
[21:19] Susannah Streeter: It’s really great to know that there is that impartial advice available from the Government – that Pension Wise...
[21:24] Helen Morrissey: Yes.
[21:24] Susannah Streeter: ...you’re referring to, Helen – so thank you very much.
We have just about got time for our fun fact of the week – although should we [laughs] really be having that much fun now we’re talking about scams?! It all seems pretty serious, Sarah – but I’m sure you’ve got something up your sleeve?
[21:38] Sarah Coles: Well, this is the thing – how d’you have fun with scams? – obviously, you can’t. So, I’ve, weirdly, gone down the impersonations route with a really tenuous link.
There is a celebrity out there... when they go to work, they take a pantomime-horse costume with them...
[21:51] Susannah Streeter: [Laughs]
[21:52] Sarah Coles: ...in order to cheer things up when it’s quiet at work – and they pop this costume on and it’s hilarious.
So, who d’you think the celebrity is?
Is it Kate Winslet, Kate Beckinsale, or Katie Price?
[22:02] Susannah Streeter: I think it’s something that Kate Winslet would do – I’ve just got that feeling. I could be wrong – it could be Kate Beckinsale – I can’t imagine Katie Price in a pantomime-horse outfit!
[22:13] Sarah Coles: So, what d’you think, Helen?
[22:14] Helen Morrissey: So, I agree with Susannah, in that I don’t think Katie Price has a pantomime-horse outfit – and I could well imagine Kate Winslet wanting to do something like that, but then I did watch an interview with Kate Beckinsale a few years back, ...
[22:26] Sarah Coles: Ya.
[22:27] Susannah Streeter: Oh!
[22:27] Helen Morrissey: ...and she seems to be quite the practical joker – ...
[22:30] Susannah Streeter: Okay.
[22:31] Helen Morrissey: ...so I think this could be right up her street.
[22:34] Sarah Coles: You are completely right – yes!
[22:35] Helen Morrissey: Ah!
[22:35] Sarah Coles: Apparently, it’s something that she bought right at the beginning of her career – and she’s been doing it ever since.
[22:38] Susannah Streeter: Really? – ...
[22:39] Sarah Coles: Yeah!
[22:39] Susannah Streeter: ...I love that! Okay – ...
[22:40] Sarah Coles: [Laughs]
[22:40] Susannah Streeter: ...Sarah, that means that you have to bring in a pantomime-horse outfit – [laughs] – ...
[22:44] Sarah Coles: I would be delighted!
[22:44] Susannah Streeter: ...to cheer us all up!
[22:45] Sarah Coles: So, next time you see me, I shall be a half-horse!
[22:48] Susannah Streeter: [Laughs] Well, I think that’s time to wrap up – on that thought. Before we go, though, I have to say that this was recorded on 2nd June 2025 – and all information was correct at the time of recording.
[22:59] Sarah Coles: Nothing in this podcast is personal advice – you should seek advice if you’re not sure what’s right for you. Tax rules can change and benefits depend on individual circumstances.
[23:06] Susannah Streeter: So, all that’s left is for us to thank our guests: Will, Helen, and our Producer, Elizabeth Hotson.
Thank you so much for listening – we will be back again soon. Goodbye!
[23:14] Sarah Coles: Goodbye!
[23:15] Helen Morrissey: Goodbye!