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Full podcast episode transcript
[0:08] Susannah Streeter: Hello and welcome to Switch Your Money On from Hargreaves Lansdown, with me, Susannah Streeter – Head of Money and Markets.
[0:14] Sarah Coles: And me, Sarah Coles – Head of Personal Finance. And we’ve had a fun week this week – we’ve been discussing ‘HENRYs’ – which is the High Earners, Not Rich Yet.
[0:22] Susannah Streeter: Not the ‘HOOVERs’ – like...
[0:24] Sarah Coles: [Laughs]
[0:24] Susannah Streeter: ...we refer to them in my house?!
[0:25] Sarah Coles: Well, it could be a horrible confusion, couldn’t it? You’d be thinking, ‘Well, my high-earning, not rich yet Hoover...
[0:30] Susannah Streeter: [Laughs]
[0:30] Sarah Coles: ...is not doing particularly well.’ But we’re chatting around this subject ‘cause, for a lot of people, it’s quite a nice problem to have.
[0:35] Susannah Streeter: But it is focusing our attention – and lots of people’s attention – on the concept of wealth – and how, actually, you can build wealth. So, we’re gonna be focusing, for this episode, on doing just that... ‘How to build wealth’ – ‘What are the building blocks that you should be using?’ I think of it as a bit like ‘Wealth-Lego for Podcasts!’
[0:56] Sarah Coles: [Laughs] Oh, very good! So, we’ll be speaking to Bradley Clark – who’s a Financial Planner at Hargreaves Lansdown. He’s gonna take us through the process – and then we’re gonna talk to Helen Morrissey about building wealth for retirement.
[1:04] Susannah Streeter: And, if you’re a regular listener to this podcast, you will know that both Bradley and Helen have excellent nuggets and tips that they can share – so stay tuned. But, first, we’re gonna run through a few of the issues which have been affecting financial markets recently – it’s certainly been taking up an awful lot of my time. My market report is always focused on the twists and turns of what’s happening on financial markets – and, of course, geopolitical risk is back in the headlines with this escalation of conflict in the Middle East, in particular, after those strikes by Israel on Iran. Now, the immediate repercussions really showed up in the oil price – it spiked around 13% before shifting a bit lower – but, certainly, it’s elevated. And the reason why it’s elevated is because the Middle East is a key oil-producing region – and the Strait of Hormuz, very close to Iran... you see around 20% of supplies go through that strait. And, of course, we know about all the problems that there have already been in The Red Sea when it comes to the attacks by Houthi rebels on those ships – that’s caused ships to have to re-route all the way round away from The Red Sea – adding to shipping journeys – adding to the costs for companies. And, of course, with this increase in price of oil, it’s going to add to those inflationary concerns as well.
[2:35] Sarah Coles: I suppose one thing to bear in mind is that, in context, the oil price has been a bit lower for a while, so it’s a big jump up – but it’s a big jump up not from a really high oil price.
[2:43] Susannah Streeter: Absolutely. So, the reason why the oil price has been lower is, of course, the implications of Trump’s trade tariffs. Now, the World Bank, the OECD, and a number of other different bodies are forecasting that global growth this year is going to be lower – and that will have a knock-on effect on how much energy is in demand around the world – and that’s partly why oil prices have come down. Also, it’s to do with how much oil-production targets there are among OPEC+ member – the oil cartel, of course.
But this is just another factor into the mix – and there are now concerns that, even though there has been expectations of greater supply of oil... because of this situation in the Middle East, it’s forecast that there could be supply constraints in that region, and that’s why we’re seeing this spike.
[3:31] Sarah Coles: One of the areas – when we talk about global growth... So, we had the Spending Review – and part of that is there’s an expectation that taxes won’t have to go up as long as we get growth in the UK. But then, of course, we got the growth figures that came out shortly afterwards, which indicated it might not be rosy here either.
[3:47] Susannah Streeter: No – so really indicating that there was a contraction at the last count – but, if you look at the three-month period as a whole, the economy is still growing – it’s just that it’s tailing off – and, really, the overall picture is pretty stagnant. So, it is going to be difficult to kickstart growth. The Government is hoping to do so with a longer-term lens – and is ploughing a lot of money into infrastructure projects, energy, transport, housing. The question is, ‘How long is it going to take?’ Will it be enough as well to stave off the potential for some kind of tax increase at the Budget – even though, up until now, the Government says it doesn’t intend to do that.
[4:31] Sarah Coles: All of this feeds into the idea of wealth because we need growth –
growth of our investments – in order to grow our wealth. So, it’s worth us exploring a little bit about what it actually means to be wealthy.
So, ‘Wealthy’ is something that we look at in our HL Savings and Resilience Barometer – and one of the things we look at is how much you have to earn in order to be wealthy.
So, in order to be in the top 20% of earners... now, in terms of household income, you need £80,000 a year – so it’s quite a chunky amount of money.
[4:56] Susannah Streeter: Mm-hm.
[4:57] Sarah Coles: And then, when you look at assets – so how much assets people have to hold in order to be in the top 10%... that’s even chunkier. So, that’s actually a total of £1.2m. About two-fifths of that is in property – about two-fifths of that is in your pension – but an awful lot of the rest is actually in investments, so it shows how important investing is for building that wealth.
You grow wealth over your lifetime. The peak of wealth is roughly when you’re about to retire – ‘cause you grow up to retirement, and then you start spending it from that point onwards. And that can feel like a long way away – but, actually, it’s about building it as you go along.
[5:26] Susannah Streeter: Yeah – and building it as you go along when you can is crucial. I was looking on Facebook in a certain chat group recently – all about wealth, actually – and there was this panic among people with children, who had to pay really high childcare costs – but the fact they weren’t jumping on the wealth ladder – and that they weren’t saving in their ISAs – and they weren’t doing enough right now. And I just really want to say, ‘Look, don’t panic’ – because there are certain times of your life when the expenditure is high – but that can fade as you go through life.
I’ve certainly found that, once the children start school, you suddenly have freed up more of those childcare costs – and that’s when, perhaps, you can deploy them to start building up. It is also thinking, ‘Just don’t panic’ – because that can be counterproductive, can’t it?
[6:16] Sarah Coles: Really, it’s that whole thing about just doing what you can afford to do when you can afford to do it. Not hanging about, but also not thinking you’re never gonna get there.
One of the key things when you’re investing is compounding – and a lot of people have no idea what that means, so it’s worth just taking a little bit of time to go through it.
So, the idea is that you get growth on your growth – and the best way to
understand it is to look at an example.
So, let’s say, for argument’s sake, you have £100 – you’re gonna get 5% on it a year, paid once a year, and you’re gonna do that for five years. Now, take compounding out the equation... you’ll think, ‘5 x 5’ – you’re gonna get roughly 25% – and that’s going to mean you’ve got £125 at the end. Put compounding into the mix, though, and it’s a little bit different.
So, you start with £100, and you get 5% on that, so you have £105 – but, in your second year, you’re gonna get 5% on £105, which leaves you just more than £110.
Actually, what happens over that five-year period is that, instead of ending up with £125, you end up with just over £127. Now, it’s not a massive difference on a small amount of money over a small period of time – but, when you’re investing larger sums over a long period of time, it can make a huge difference to how much you get back.
[7:20] Susannah Streeter: Bit like a snowball gathering speed and snow as it rolls down the hill.
[7:25] Sarah Coles: Exactly. The longer you have – and the more that you’re putting in over time – the more that compounding effect will take place, and it will make a really huge difference to your investments.
[7:32] Susannah Streeter: Which is why, when you do feel as though you’ve got that bit of extra money to spend after some of those painful bills have gone away... it is really worth thinking about it – isn’t it? – rather than just scooting off and splashing out on a brand new Hoover! [Laughs]
[7:46] Sarah Coles: Yeah! [Laughs] There’s two things that are really important. So, the first one is your approach to investing, overall – and then, the second one is actually those building blocks that you use.
So, it’s worth us having a quick chat to Bradley now – and talk a little bit more about how people can approach investing.
[8:01] Bradley Clark: So, an easy way to think about building wealth is to compare it to building a house. Firstly, it starts with a vision – ‘How many bedrooms d’you want?’ – ‘How big d’you want this house to be?’ – ‘What is it gonna look like?’ – and, in financial planning, we call these ‘Your objectives.’
So, here, what we want to understand is, ‘What is it that you’re trying to achieve?’ – ‘What is the end goal?’ An example might be, ‘I want to retire when I’m 60 years old with £30,000 of net income per year.
Once you’ve got your objectives, you need to start building the blueprints – and this is where we start creating our financial plan.
That often starts with a budget – so understanding what income’s coming in, what’s going out is a really good starting point when it comes to seeing, ‘What levers d’you have to pull when it comes to building wealth?’ And it’s not just income you can look at, but also capital that you’ve got as well. So, if you’ve got existing pensions, existing investments – perhaps you’ve inherited some money or you’ve got cash savings – then understanding, ‘What of those assets could be used to put towards building this longer-term plan?’
Once you’ve got the objectives – and you’ve started building the plan – you know what assets you’ve got and what income you’ve got to build that plan... that’s when you can actually start building the house – and, ‘What d’you need when you build a house – when you first start?’ – you need foundations. And, in financial planning, it’s the same thing – you need to start with the foundations before you can start building wealth.
So, there are three things that we make sure clients have in place before they start building their wealth. The first one is a cash emergency fund – making sure that you’ve got some accessible cash which you can get to. We, typically, recommend three to six months of your normal expenditure as a cash emergency pot – for things like the roof going or the boiler breaking – or something like that.
The next thing that we always want our clients to have in place is protection. So, that is things like Income Protection Insurance, Life Cover, maybe Critical Illness Cover – particularly important if you’ve got children or you have people who are relying on you, financially. That’s a really good foundation to have in place before you start thinking about building wealth.
And then, finally, debts. Making sure that your debt position is a manageable one. So, you don’t want to have, if possible, bad debts – good debts are okay – mortgages – that sort of thing. But those are the three financial foundations that we want to have in place – and, once you’ve got them in place, that’s when you can start building your wealth.
[10:13] Sarah Coles: So, presumably, depending on where you are in life, that will influence how you then go and build wealth?
[10:18] Bradley Clark: Yes – and every client will be at a different stage in their life – from just getting started to perhaps being further down the path and having built up some assets.
But the framework that I mentioned a second ago is pretty universal. The biggest difference from those who are just starting out in their jobs is likely gonna be that they’re gonna have fewer levers to be able to pull – whereas, if you’re further down the path, you might have more assets and capital that you’ve built up – you might have more earnings that you can look to use. If you’re at the beginning of your career, it might be that the only lever you can pull is investing £50, maybe £100 per month – and that’s fine. You can start building wealth with a small amount as long as you apply those principles – and, as time goes on, you look to increase the amount that you’re saving – if you do get a pay increase, for example, rather than just spending all of that money... looking to use the same framework and actually put some of that money away and increase the regular savings that you’re doing.
If you have existing savings – or you’ve inherited a lump sum – then you will have more scope for building wealth – and, perhaps, alongside regular savings, there’s more you can do.
[11:17] Sarah Coles: So, d’you go back to that blueprint – and go back to that plan – when someone’s circumstances change?
[11:23] Bradley Clark: You would – yeah. The blueprint is always there – it should always be adapted if needs be – but, if your circumstances change, it doesn’t mean the whole plan has to change – it may just need to be tweaked.
[11:31] Sarah Coles: So, I guess people will come to you when, for example, they get an inheritance – there’s a really big change to their circumstances?
[11:38] Bradley Clark: That does happen – and, where there is a big change, that could be a good time to seek financial advice. You may already have a plan in place – and you’re building wealth, and you’ve been doing it for many years, and you’re quite comfortable with that – but, if there is a big step-change – such as inherited lump sum – that could be a good time to actually seek professional advice.
[11:54] Sarah Coles: So, if people are tackling it, themselves, are there certain regular pitfalls that they could look out for to make sure they don’t fall into them?
[12:01] Bradley Clark: There are. Something very relevant to this year, in particular, is not getting caught up in short-term noise. So, there has been a lot of noise in markets with what’s been going on in the States – and, pretty much, all round the world – but focusing on that longer-term plan is really key. So, I find the clients who end up with the best results are the ones who focus on the longer-term.
I think another one is Lifestyle Creep. This is where you may have a plan in place already – and you’re contributing £100 per month to your plan... you get a pay rise with work – and, rather than using that additional income to add to your plan to start building wealth for the future, you just spend more. You go to nice restaurants – you book nicer holidays. So, Lifestyle Creep is something to look out for – and a good way of avoiding that is by applying percentage principles.
When you get your salary coming in, you might say, ‘I’m gonna put 20% of that into my savings’ – therefore, if you get a pay rise, the 20% just increases – the actual plan, itself, doesn’t change.
[12:54] Sarah Coles: Brilliant – thank you, Bradley, as ever.
We should also, now, talk a little bit about those building blocks – so, Susannah, could you just take us through some of those building blocks people use when they’re building their wealth?
[13:02] Susannah Streeter: The first one has to be cash – because you do need to have that cushion of cash to rely on. We always say three to six months of essential expenditure – make sure you’ve got that cushion – and then, if you need to pay a big bill or you’ve got a big purchase to make – and you know you need that money within the next five years... that’s also why you should keep it in cash. But, for a longer period of time – on a longer horizon... that’s when you should be really thinking about all the other building blocks.
Let’s talk about equities and funds. Of course, equities can include high-growth companies or companies that pay dividends – and are not seen as high-growth, but more stable investments.
Now, they both have a real role to play in your portfolio, but it depends on what kind of life stage you’re at. If you’re quite young – if you’ve suddenly freed up all those childcare costs, then you think, ‘I’ve got quite a long horizon’ – well, then looking for those companies that will deliver more growth... they could be a bit riskier, but they have the potential to deliver more growth over the longer-term – and that’s perhaps something you could think about.
Whereas, if you’re looking at retirement – staring it in the face... that’s a time when you might want to go for more companies that offer pretty robust dividends – and you can use that as income, going forward.
But, as well as equities and funds – and, of course, equities... I like to describe them as like the fairy cakes around your investments – and the funds are the big slices of gateau, which have a number of different companies in each slice, offering that diversification.
So, you’ve got funds and equities – but, of course, in funds as well, you can have bonds – you can have gold – and they all offer something different in that big slice of cake. Bonds can offer a bit more of a stable return – that’s not to say that the bond market can’t be volatile – we certainly have seen that in recent years. But, on a historic basis, they have had a tendency to be offering more stable returns.
You could, of course, invest in corporate bonds, debt of companies – but also government debt – so gilts and treasuries as well. And you’ve also got gold – we’ve seen gold rise to record levels this year amid all of this geopolitical and trade uncertainty. Certainly, there is no guarantee that its going to go higher – and it’s likely to have a volatile path ahead, given it has been at record levels – but it has a part to play in a portfolio.
[15:36] Sarah Coles: I guess, in some cases, you might have funds that focus purely on equities or shares – or you might have a Pure Bond Fund – or you might have funds that mix them across and provide that diversification for you.
[15:47] Susannah Streeter: Yes – and, certainly, in times of high political tension, you do find that some of those funds that offer gold as a bit of a ballast – and bonds, as well as equities, can be popular – and some of them clash as well. So, you can have that ready-made diversification, but there are other parts of the market.
There is, for example, the alternative investment market – and that’s made up of quoted companies on AIM, which are often smaller – can be very high-growth... they can be more risky, but then they also have potential for higher rewards ahead if you do take that risk. But, remember that the AIM market has lower liquidity – not quite so many people necessarily want to buy and sell those shares – and that’s something to be aware of.
[16:35] Sarah Coles: You talked about how young people might look for growth – and how older people might look for income. Presumably, that balance, over time, needs to change to reflect exactly what you want from your portfolio?
[16:43] Susannah Streeter: Yes – and that’s why it is really important to keep looking at your Lego building blocks in your portfolio, and thinking, ‘Have I put them in the right stack?’ – ‘Have I got too much of yellow, not enough red?’ So, make sure that your portolio’s working hardest for you for what you need at any moment in time.
[16:59] Sarah Coles: Okay – so you’ve talked about how different asset mixes work at different ages – so this feels like a really good time to bring in Helen Morrissey.
So, Helen – obviously, when you’re building your wealth to get to your pension... can you talk us through some of the issues people need to face?
[17:12] Helen Morrissey: Yes – so I think one of the big challenges that people have with their pensions is that it’s not a ‘Get-rich-quick’ scenario. I think of pensions as being the ultimate ‘Get-rich-slowly’ approach – and you have your own contributions going in – you’ve got tax relief from the Government – and then, if you’re employed, you’ve got your employer contribution going in as well.
Now, when you first start on your pension-saving journey, you could be quite young – you might not be earning very much – and I think, sometimes, it can feel like you’re not getting anywhere very fast – but, actually, that’s the beauty of a pension... it’s these regular drip-feeds of money going into your pension every month that builds up over time. And then, as your earnings increase, you’re able to put a bit more into your pension... you do start to see those pensions start to grow and grow. And so, you can go from a position where you look at your pensions and going, ‘Oh, I’m never gonna reach my target’ – but, the longer you stick with it, the closer you will get.
[18:11] Sarah Coles: One of the things Bradley was talking about... when you get a pay rise, not going and spending it on nice restaurants. Presumably, at that point, the pension becomes an issue to think about?
[18:18] Helen Morrissey: Absolutely. So, we have the auto-enrolment strategy in place – which means that, as long as you’re aged over 22 – earning over £10,000 per year – you will be auto-enrolled into a pension.
Now, this is great ‘cause it’s brought more people into the pension-saving landscape – but what it does also mean is that a lot of it’s automated for you – and you might feel that those auto-enrolment minimums aren’t gonna be enough to get you a decent income in retirement.
For many people, they’re probably looking for a little bit more – so, what I always say is... if you do get that pay increase, don’t give it away to Lifestyle Creep – use it to boost your own pension contribution.
There’s also another thing to say... look as to what your employer can do for you – because, many employers, they will contribute at auto-enrolment minimums for their staff members, but there are other employers that are willing to go over and above that – and, if you’re willing to contribute more, they will contribute more – and that’s what is known as an ‘Employer match’ – and this could be a good way of really boosting your pension contribution – without necessarily putting in an awful lot more yourself.
[19:24] Sarah Coles: And, if people haven’t really massively focused on building their pensions’ wealth so far, how do they find out where they stand at the moment?
[19:30] Helen Morrissey: The key thing is to check with your pension provider. You will get regular statements from your pension provider. I know some people might not read them, but you can go online – you can see what you’ve currently got in your workplace pension. You can use online pension calculators – these can be really useful in saying, ‘What have I got?’ – ‘What is that likely to get me by the time I hit retirement age?’ – and, ‘Actually, if was to boost my pension contribution, what might that get me?’ – and that could be a really good way of seeing where you are in your retirement journey – and making sure that you are on track.
What I would also say is... don’t just look at the pension in the job that you’re doing right now. One of the big problems that people face is that, as you move around between different jobs, you can accumulate a pension in every job you have. Over time, you could move house – you might not update your contact details – and this means that there are many of us who have lost track of a pension over time – and that could actually be thousands of pounds that could be going towards your retirement income.
What I would always say is... periodically, sit down – write down a list of who you’ve worked for – ‘Did you think you have a pension with them?’ – ‘D’you have paperwork?’ If you’ve got the paperwork, brilliant – if you haven’t, and you think that you had a pension with them, go to the national Pension Tracing Service – it’s a government service. They can’t tell you if you have definitely got a pension with a given provider or employer – but, if you say, ‘I think I’ve got a pension with ‘This’ employer or provider,’ they will give you contact details, so you can find out. And you could find that you’ve got an extra few thousand there that could make a really big difference, come retirement age. It’s a great way of building your wealth.
[21:15] Sarah Coles: So, it is quite difficult to keep track of lots of pensions if you’ve moved lots of times – and you’ve been automatically enrolled into lots of different pensions schemes. What can people do to make that process easier?
[21:26] Helen Morrissey: You can look to consolidate – and having that overarching view can really help your retirement planning – because, if you’ve got a series of small pensions dotted around here, there, and everywhere, you may just look at them as single pots of money – and that might make you tempted that, when the time comes, maybe just take them as cash and spend them. Whereas, if you were to consolidate them, you have this overarching view of how much you’ve got – and that can really improve your retirement decision-making – and can really make you think, ‘Oh, well, this has grown to quite a size – what can I do to optimise that?’
Before you go down the consolidation route, check to make sure that you aren’t incurring any expensive exit fees that you might get with some older policies, for instance – you don’t wanna be doing that. You also want to check that you’re not giving up any really valuable benefits, such as guaranteed annuity rates – that you might be giving up by just consolidating or checking.
So, if you feel that you need to take financial advice, that might be useful too – but I do think that tracking down those lost pensions and then potentially consolidating them could be a real no-regrets move to really boosting your retirement wealth.
[22:37] Sarah Coles: So, we’ve talked about pensions – as we always do when we talk to you, Helen – but, presumably, there are other ways of putting money aside for your retirement as well?
[22:43] Helen Morrissey: Yeah, there are – and, if you’ve got the extra cash, you can look beyond pensions. I think ISAs are a really great supplement to your retirement planning – the income that you take from an ISA is tax-free, so they can play a really important role in your overall tax-planning strategy – helping to preserve your wealth.
[23:03] Sarah Coles: So, when we talk about pensions, we always have to talk about the age limits that are imposed.
[23:08] Helen Morrissey: Yeah, of course – so it’s really important to remember that, as it currently stands, you can’t access a pension until the age of 55 – and that is going to rise to 57 in 2028. Obviously, ISAs don’t have those age limits attached to them.
[23:24] Sarah Coles: Of course, it always pay to bear in mind that the rules around pensions and ISAs – and all those tax rules... they can change – and, of course, your benefits are gonna depend on your personal circumstances as well.
And, if people are looking at the big, broad picture of retirement income – and looking for a little bit of help – there is some help out there as well.
[23:40] Helen Morrissey: Yeah, absolutely. So, in terms of financial advice... can be an absolute gamechanger for people – if they feel that they need it – they’re able to pay for it. And, for people that need more guidance, there is a free government service called Pension Wise – if you are over the age of 55, do get in touch with them.
[23:58] Susannah Streeter: Helen, thank you very much, as usual.
Now, it is time for our stat of the week, Sarah – and, this week, what have you got for us?
[24:06] Sarah Coles: I’m gonna look at property.
So, the big question is... how much difference does it make to own property – in terms of building your wealth?
So, when you take the average person who owns property, how much more wealthy are they than the kind of person who doesn’t own property?
Are they 5 times wealthier?
Are they 15 times wealthier?
Or are they 30 times wealthier?
[24:28] Susannah Streeter: I know it is quite stark – it’s either 15 or 30 times as much. I’d say probably 15.
[24:36] Sarah Coles: And what do you think, Helen?
[24:37] Helen Morrissey: I mean, they’re all pretty big numbers, aren’t they? I’m gonna go with 15 times as much.
[24:43] Sarah Coles: Brilliant – and what do you think, Bradley?
[24:45] Bradley Clark: I don’t think it’s as much as that – I’m gonna go for the lower number of 5.
[24:49] Sarah Coles: Oh, well, I’m very glad ‘cause I thought you were all gonna get it right – but, no, thank you for getting it wrong, Bradley! No, it’s actually...
[24:54] Bradley Clark: [Laughs]
[24:54] Sarah Coles: ...15! So, ...
[24:55] Helen Morrissey: Oh!
[24:55] Sarah Coles: ...clearly, it helps to build wealth if you also happen to be a property owner – and, I guess, ‘cause you’re not paying for extortionate rents.
[25:00] Helen Morrissey: Exactly – I’ve learnt something today! [Laughs]
[25:02] Sarah Coles: [Laughs]
[25:03] Susannah Streeter: Before we go, we do need to say this was recorded on 13th and 16th June 2025 and all information was correct at the time of recording.
[25:10] Sarah Coles: Nothing in this podcast is personal advice – you should seek advice if you’re not sure what’s right for you. Investments and any income they produce can rise and fall in value, so you could get back less than you invest – and past performance is not a guide to the future. Tax rules can change and benefits depend on individual circumstances.
[25:24] Susannah Streeter: Yes – this is not advice or a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any investment. No view is given on the present or future value or price of any investment – and investors should form their own view on any proposed investment.
[25:34] Sarah Coles: And this hasn’t been prepared in accordance with legal requirements designed to promote the independence of investment research – and is considered a marketing communication.
[25:40] Susannah Streeter: Non-independent research is not subject to FCA rules prohibiting dealing ahead of research. However, HL has put controls in place (including dealing restrictions, physical and information barriers) to manage potential conflicts of interest presented by such dealing.
[25:54] Sarah Coles: You can see our full non-independent research disclosure on our website for more information.
So, all that’s left is for us to thank our guests: Bradley, Helen, and our Producer,
Elizabeth Hotson.
[26:02] Susannah Streeter: Thank you so much for listening – we’ll be back again soon. Goodbye!
[26:06] Sarah Coles: Goodbye!
[26:06] Bradley Clark: Goodbye!
[26:07] Helen Morrissey: Goodbye!