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The last chance to save tax: beating the pension and ISA deadline

In this episode, Sarah and Susannah talk all things tax year end and look at the reasons why many leave it to the last minute to make use of pension and ISA allowances. They also look at how this year's Spring Budget could impact your savings and investments - touching on British ISA, cuts to National Insurance and more.
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This podcast isn’t personal advice. If you’re not sure what’s right for you, seek advice. Tax rules can change and benefits depend on personal circumstances.

Important information: Investments can go up and down in value so you can get back less than you invest.


Susannah Streeter: Hello and welcome to Switch Your Money On from Hargreaves Lansdown. I’m Susannah Streeter – Head of Money and Markets.

Sarah Coles: And I’m Sarah Coles – Head of Personal Finance – and you’re catching us both in a really busy time – both for us and the business – because it’s the end of the tax year.

Susannah Streeter: Thanks to changes over 200 years ago – from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar – and the Treasury’s determination not to miss out on tax revenue at the time – the tax year officially ends on 5th April.

Sarah Coles: And the reason this gets so many people hot under the collar are a number of allowances that will be lost for the year if they’re not used by then.

Susannah Streeter: It’s a peculiar quirk that, although this hasn’t changed for more than 200 years, we still get a rush for the deadline. The most popular months for investment at HL are March and April.

Sarah Coles: So, in this episode of the podcast, we’ll be looking at what to watch for at the end of the tax year, including insights on pensions from our Head of Retirement Analysis, Helen Morrissey – plus some shares and funds to watch with Lead Equity Analyst, Sophie Lund-Yates – and our Head of Investment Analysis and Research, Emma Wall – in an episode we’re calling ‘The Last Chance to Save Tax.’

Susannah Streeter: We’ll also be exploring why we leave it to the last minute with George Quicksmith from Quicksmith Consulting, who specialises in behavioural insights.

George is with us now – are you surprised that people do leave things late at the tax-year end?

George Quicksmith: No, I don’t think I’m surprised, but there are quite a lot of influences that are going on whenever we are coming to the end of the tax year – so we can get into them a bit later on.

Susannah Streeter: Looking forward to that. Before we go any further – now the dust has settled on the Budget, we thought it was worth calling out some of the changes that will make the most difference to savers and investors.

Sarah Coles: Yes – there were a few key announcements. So, one was a consultation on plans for a new ‘British ISA,’ which could be created in the form of an extra £5,000 tax-free allowance for the public to invest exclusively in UK investments.

Susannah Streeter: We welcome this consultation. Our clients who trade shares are already enthusiastic UK investors with 83% of equities held in UK listings – and, with over 1,000 UK equities available on our platform, there is plenty of choice. In our response to the consultation, we will explore how best to support these investments.

Sarah Coles: A British Savings Bond from National Savings and Investments (NS&I) was also announced, which will offer a fixed guaranteed interest rate over three years. There’ll be a lot of attention paid to the rate available, because even those savers who want to buy British won’t want to accept a disappointing rate.

Susannah Streeter: It was a quiet one for pensions. We were hugely disappointed that the Chancellor skipped the opportunity to reform Lifetime ISAs. Although it was great to see the Government reaffirm their commitment to Lifetime Pensionshowever, we can’t expect anything overnight.

Sarah Coles: There was also what was considered the headline of the Budget – the fact that National Insurance will be cut by 2p in April, which will make a real difference to the money in people’s pockets. On average, an employed person will save £450.

Susannah Streeter: However, it doesn’t fall evenly – the less you earn, the less you save. In addition, because National Insurance isn’t paid past State Pension age, there’s no relief for pensioners.

At the same time, this April will see another freeze in the personal allowance and the higher rate tax threshold – and, when you add this to the National Insurance cut, middle earners will be better off – both higher and lower earners will be worse off than if neither change had been made.

Sarah Coles: It means that making the most of tax allowances will remain absolutely vital. So, with the tax-year end looming, it’s worth exploring what taxes you could be in the frame for – and how tax wrappers like ISAs and pensions can help you save tax.

Of course, the income tax rates and bands in Scotland are now very different, but the basic principle applies.

So, if you save and invest without a tax wrapper, there are different kinds of tax due on different things.

Susannah Streeter: Let’s start with Income Tax. When you earn more than the personal savings allowance in interest on a savings account – or peer-to-peer investment – you’ll pay income tax on the rest. This allowance is currently £1,000 for basic rate taxpayers and £500 for higher rate taxpayers – additional rate tax payers don’t get an allowance.

If you’re using interest from savings to boost your overall income, the frozen tax thresholds mean there’s a risk it will push you into a new tax bracket, so you pay a higher rate of tax. By taking interest from an ISA, this portion of your income will be free from UK tax.

Sarah Coles: Then there’s dividend tax. When you earn more than the dividend allowance on investments, you’ll pay dividend tax on the remainder. In April, the dividend allowance will be slashed for the second consecutive year – to £500 – so more people will be paying more tax.

In addition, the frozen income tax thresholds will push more people into the higher and additional rates of tax – which will also increase the rate of tax they pay on dividends. You don’t need to pay UK tax on dividend income within an ISA.

Susannah Streeter: There’s capital gains tax to consider as well. When you sell up and earn over the capital gains tax allowance in profits on investments, you’ll pay tax on the excess. From 6th April, the allowance will be cut from £6,000 to £3,000 – down from £12,300 two years earlier. To make matters worse, the frozen income tax thresholds mean more people will be pushed into the higher tax rate bracket, increasing the rate of this tax. Within an ISA, you can sell up any number of stocks – and, if you make gains, they are tax-free.

Sarah Coles: And finally, there’s the parent trap. Savings and investments for children are taxed as belonging to the child, so there’s usually no tax to pay. But there’s a major exception to this – if the parents are putting the money in – then, if the child makes interest or dividends of over £100, it’s taxed as belonging to the parents. So, if they’re over their personal savings allowance – or dividend allowance – they’ll pay tax on it. A Junior ISA will help them to save tax. It’s a tax-efficient account – and, when the child turns 18, they get access, giving them a head start on their future.

Susannah Streeter: The fundamentals of saving tax remain the same in the coming tax year – but, in the Autumn Statement, there were some tweaks to ISAs – which come in from 6th April – which are worth knowing about.

Sarah Coles: Yes – so, at the moment, you can only pay into one ISA of any type in any single tax year – so that’s one stocks and shares ISA and one cash ISA. However, from 6th April, this rule is dropped, and you can pay into as many as you like. For cash ISA savers, it offers the opportunity to jump on more competitive deals later in the year.

For those using stocks and shares ISAs, it protects investors who might accidentally open more than one ISA of the same type in a tax year. Under the current rules, if you make a single regular payment into a stocks and shares ISA at the start of the tax year, and then try to invest in another stocks and shares ISA on the last day of the tax year, you’ll break the rules.

Susannah Streeter: So, that was a bit of a speed through ISAs, but we should also touch on pensions – so this does feel like a good time to bring in Helen Morrissey.

So, Helen – what are the key things on your radar for people trying to make most of their retirement planning?

Helen Morrissey: Well, one of the biggest will be the removal of the lifetime allowance from 6th April. You’ll remember that its abolition was ‘The’ shock announcement of last year’s Budget. The lifetime allowance is the limit on the total value of pension benefits you can build up throughout your lifetime – and generally receive up to 25% tax-free. This limit is currently £1,073,100 for most people, although some individuals would have been able to protect a higher threshold. In previous tax years, if the value of your pension grew beyond this, then you would have been subject to a tax charge when you took benefits in excess of the limit. But, since 6th April 2023, the lifetime allowance charge has been removed.

From 6th April 2024, the lifetime allowance is abolished. This doesn’t mean that there’ll be no limits on the amount of pension savings people can take without a tax charge. There is still an upper limit to the tax-free amount that can typically be accessed from a pension. Instead, it has been replaced by three new allowances that come in from 6th April.

Sarah Coles: Can you explain what these are?

Helen Morrissey: Firstly, we’ve got the new Lump Sum Allowance which will limit the amount most people can take out of a pension – tax-free – to £268,275. This is the same limit on tax-free amounts as under the current rules for most people. If you’ve taken out protection in the past, then you might be entitled to more than this, so it is important to check.

Then we’ve got the Lump Sum and Death Benefit Allowance – which, for most people, will be set at £1,073,100 – subject to whether you’ve taken protection out in the past. Finally, there’s the Overseas Transfer Allowance which will cover transfers to Qualifying Recognised Overseas Pension Schemes (QROPs). This will also be seat at £1,073,100 for most people – and, if you’re looking to take an income from your pension – or access your tax-free cash – you need to be aware of these limits and how they apply to you.

Susannah Streeter: That sounds pretty complicated!

Helen Morrissey: It really can be. We need to remember that there are people who’ve accessed their pensions before the rules changed – as well as those who may have taken out protection – and so their allowances may be set at different levels to the ones that I’ve outlined here. It can be a really complicated area – and, if needed, financial advice should be taken.

Sarah Coles: Is there anything else that people need to be aware of as they go into this new tax year?

Helen Morrissey: Well, last year’s Budget saw the Annual Allowance increase from £40,000 to £60,000 per year. We also saw an increase in the Money Purchase Annual Allowance from £4,000 to £10,000. This was to encourage those who may need to rebuild their pension – after accessing it previously – to do so.

There’s strong signs that these measures are working with the number of HL clients contributing exactly £10,000 to their SIPP – so far this tax year – over 50% higher than those who contributed exactly £4,000 in the same period last year. We’ve also seen the number contributing more than £40,000 tripling, along with the number using carry-forward to invest more than £60,000 jumping by 50%. It’s clear the rule changes have breathed fresh life into pension planning.

Susannah Streeter: That is great news to hear – these changes have had such an impact. Do you have any other top tips for people looking to get the most from their pension planning?

Helen Morrissey: I certainly do. High earners should also consider using pension contribution allowances across their family – if they have the extra cash. You can currently add £2,880 to a SIPP each year for a non-earner. Now, this could be a non-working spouse or children – and the Government will automatically pay £720 as tax relief to that amount. This is a valuable – but often underused – tax-saving opportunity.

Keep in mind that, typically, pensions can be accessed from age 55, but this is increasing to age 57 in 2028. The deadline to use these allowances – this tax year – is 5th April.

Susannah Streeter: Thank you, Helen – it is really good to get an idea of what should be top of the list. But, of course, getting on the ‘To-do’ list isn’t the same as ‘Getting it done’ – and, with so many people leaving things right to the last minute, we thought we should explore this – and find out why with George Quicksmith.

So, George – I should first ask you about your work in this area. How is this something you became an expert on?

George Quicksmith: It’s something I was interested in for quite a long time because I was in the world of ‘Behaviour change’ – and trying to get people to do things that are more in their best interest – and, sometimes, we’re our own worst enemies when it comes to these things – and we won’t do the things that are in our best interests because of innate, natural preferences that we all have about the world around us. For example, our present bias – where we like to do things that have more of a gain – or they’re more enjoyable in the present – but they may not have a longer-term benefit – like saving for our pensions is a bit less fun than spending money on a nice holiday now. So, we’ll tend to do things like that quite often.

Sarah Coles: Are there other reasons why people leave their finances to the last minute?

George Quicksmith: Part of it is our natural tendencies – and, who we are naturally as people – our personality traits. Different people’s personalities will affect how much they tend to procrastinate – what kind of levels of anxiety they feel about deadlines – and things like that – so how much we feel that present bias – that building sense of, ‘What’s coming next?’ – and what we need to do.

So, there’s a principle – or a set of traits – in behavioural science called ‘The OCEAN Big Five Personality Traits’ – and the OCEAN Big Five are Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism – which it shouldn’t be taken as any sort of a slight [laughs] – that, if you have a high neuroticism, it tends to mean that you tend to be the kind of person that likes to get things nice and early.

So, those of us who are high in conscientiousness – and high in neuroticism – will tend to be the early birds that like to get things done at the very first sniffs of anxiety of a deadline looming ahead of us. Whereas, those of us who are low in conscientiousness – and lower in neuroticism – will tend to be less sensitive to things like deadlines – and more easy-going – and so have a much higher tolerance for anxiety – and be more likely to leave things to the last minute – or forget to do them all together.

Susannah Streeter: So, if you are a lagger – and you’re always forgetting to do things – how can you improve?

George Quicksmith: So, that’s where the good news is – because, no matter what our natural state of play is – no matter what our natural sense of procrastination – or neuroticism – or whatever that might be is – there’s lots of things that we can do to help ourselves out when it comes to putting things off to the last minute.

So, there’s a model that we can use – from behavioural science – called ‘The COM-B model’ – which comes from Professor Susan Michie – and it stands for ‘Capability, Opportunity and Motivation = B’ – Behaviour.

So, essentially, if we have more capability, opportunity, and motivation to do something, then we’re more likely to do the behaviour. So, under ‘Capability’ – when it comes to our year-end tasks – we can make the task easier. By breaking our year-end jobs into more bite-sized chunks – and being a bit kinder to ourselves about not doing everything at once – and one big lump sum – and just breaking things up into small things – we can make it easier to get started. We, sometimes, call this ‘Chunking’ – or ‘The Segregation Effect’ – in behavioural science. And, if we’re not sure how to get started, then maybe listening to a podcast! – or just reading a blog – could be a great way to start managing our finances. It just hugely relieves our anxiety to get started in this way – and it makes us more likely to go ahead and continue – and finish things off – in the near future too.

Under ‘Capability’ – that’s something that we can do. Under ‘Opportunity’ – we might use something called ‘Implementation Intention Techniques’ – which sounds complicated, but it’s really like a ‘If then’ rule. So, we might say, ‘On Tuesday night, I’ll take a look at my tax-free allowances’. Just by figuring out how we’re going to do the task before we have to go ahead and do it, we take care of all that side of things. We know exactly how we’re going to do it – we just have to then turn up at the time and get the thing done – and we can just get cracking straight from there.

Finally – on the ‘Motivation’ side – we can use fun things like ‘Temptation Bundling’ – which comes from a Professor called Katie Milkman – in the States – and she had this idea that people go to the gym more if they’re only allowed to listen to an audible subscription while they’re at the gym.

So, what we can do is – we can take this principle and take it into our finances. So, we compare doing something that’s immediately enjoyable with something that might not be quite as immediately enjoyable, but that has long-term benefits – like looking at our tax-free allowances, for example.

You might only allow yourself to have a fancy hot chocolate – that you treated yourselves to – while you’re doing your year-end jobs – or declare that you’ll only look at the best ETFs while your partner gives you a foot-rub – that kind of thing [laughs]!

Susannah Streeter: [Laughs]

George Quicksmith: We can also use commitment devices – like saying to our family and friends that, ‘I promise you – I’m going to check on my investments – and my ETFs – and my allowances – this weekend for the year.’ It makes us more committed – and more likely to do these tasks – when we’ve said them to somebody else. And, if we really want to be accountable, then we can say, ‘If I don’t do it, then you get to donate a £10 note to a political party that I absolutely loathe.’

Susannah Streeter: [Laughs] That’s fascinating. I really do welcome all of those tips and tricks – and, certainly, it will give us lots of food for thought. Thank you, George.

So, now we’re galvanised – there’s always the question of, ‘Where to look’ in investment terms. So, this feels like a good time to bring in Sophie Lund-Yates – our Lead Equity Analyst.

So, Sophie – what’s your take? Because, of course, the new tax year is nearly upon us. You and the team have been busy looking at possible share ideas for stocks and shares ISAs.

Of course, we have to remind people that investing in individual shares isn’t right for everyone – and our shares ideas for an ISA are for people who really understand the increased risks of investing in individual shares – and you have to make sure you understand any companies you invest in.

Bearing all of this in mind, what can you tell us?

Sophie Lund-Yates: We have indeed. Investing for your ISA comes with some extra things to think about – like the fact that ISAs are so-called ‘Tax-efficient wrappers.’

With the ongoing uncertainty, listeners may recognise some of these share ideas from our Five Shares to Watch for 2024, which I spoke about a few months ago. One of those is Coca-Cola.

This entry needs very little introduction. Coca-Cola is, of course, a beverage giant, selling it’s products in more than 200 countries and territories across the world. That helped revenue and operating profit grow at mid-single digit rates to around $45.8bn and £11.3bn respectively in 2023.

Coca-Cola’s operating model is what sets it apart from other drinks makers. The group focuses on selling its concentrate syrup, rather than doing the actual manufacturing and bottling. That helps keep a lid on costs and supports its industry-leading gross margins, which hover around the 60% mark.

Coca-Cola’s cemented its position as a dividend king – so it’s grown its annual dividend for 61 years in a row. That is supported by extremely healthy free cashflows. Coupled with falling net debt levels, we think there’s room for increased share buybacks moving forward. Buybacks are when a company repurchases its own shares – typically reducing the total number of shares. As always, any shareholder returns are never guaranteed.

One thing to keep in mind is that Coca-Cola is unlikely to ever be a super-high-growth name – and, for all it’s strengths, it’s not immune to ups and downs.

Sarah Coles: So, Sophie – what else have you looked at?

Sophie Lund-Yates: Another name that came out of our extensive research was Cameco – which our listeners may or may not have heard of. It’s a Canada-based company engaged in providing uranium fuel to generate clean, reliable, baseload (baseload is simply the minimum amount of electric power needed to be supplied to the electrical grid at any given time) electricity around the globe. The company also offers nuclear fuel processing services, refinery services, and it manufactures fuel assemblies and reactor components.

Attitudes towards nuclear energy show signs of shifting in Cameco’s favour. This is in response to the energy crises centred around the availability of supply for traditional energy sources following the Russia/Ukraine conflict. In some cases, full-scale, anti-nuclear stances are being reversed. We think the market is primed to grow from here – not only because of the helpful megatrend of cleaner energy solutions, but because there is a limited uranium supply coming online at a time when demand is increasing.

So, as a bit of context, the group’s revenue jumped 39% to $2.6bn in 2023, partly because of rising uranium prices and volumes. Margins are in the region of 15%, and these are expected to more than double in the coming years.

One thing I should mention is that Cameco is exposed to political risk. We think policymakers will remain on a more nuclear-friendly course, but this isn’t guaranteed and could change – which would affect Cameco. Any nuclear disaster events would badly hurt the valuation. Also, uranium is a commodity – and that makes Cameco exposed to a cycle it has little control over, which can cause fluctuations in sentiment.

Susannah Streeter: We know there are five names in total, but you’re only talking about three today – so what’s the last one you’re covering?

Sophie Lund-Yates: Good point. There are two others on the full list – and you can find out all about it via the full article on our website.

For now, I’ll sign off by talking about Microsoft. Now, before people roll their eyes at the mention of US tech – I know it’s everywhere. We really think Microsoft is compelling at the moment.

Microsoft is one of a handful of stocks that’s been on a rocket ship to the Moon in recent months – but why – and is it sustainable?

Excitement’s centred around artificial intelligence (AI). Microsoft is top of the pack when it comes to the potential monetisation of AI. AI can be integrated into the majority of its existing products, which has the potential to significantly raise revenue and margin ceilings in these areas. By doing this, the appeal of Microsoft’s products should increase, which will help culminate in better pricing dynamics. And the group also owns a large stake in OpenAI, which his behind ChatGPT.

Microsoft also has an enormous cloud business. This offers all sorts – including helping companies that need to boost their computing power and abilities to build out their own technologies. Growth here has been impressive – although, as always, new technologies come with steep development costs – and regulatory risk is also a hurdle in the AI space. Of course, the tech giant also has a stellar core company churning away in the background – and I’m referring to its flagship software.

Ultimately, the question of where Microsoft’s ship will land in the short-term will be governed by the forces largely outside of Microsoft’s control. Things like external technology budgets and when the Federal Reserve decides to cut interest rates. That serves as a reminder that there are no guarantees.

Susannah Streeter: Thanks, Sophie – some really interesting things to consider.

This isn’t personal advice – or a recommendation to buy, sell, or hold any investment. No view is given on the present or future value – or price of any investment – and investors should form their own view on any proposed investment.

But, of course, it’s not just companies that people are weighing up this time of year, but funds too – so it makes sense to bring in Emma Wall – our Head of Research and Analysis.

So, Emma – what have you been looking at?

Emma Wall: Today, I am sharing some ideas for ISA investors – and I wanted to do things a little differently, this episode. So, focusing on just one area of global markets which we see value in – and sharing ideas for a fund, investment trust, and an ETF that we have high conviction in to access that sector.

Susannah Streeter: So, what’s the sector you are focusing on?

Emma Wall: The sector we’ve chosen is UK Equity Income.

Dividends have been a key to the UK investment case for a long time. It’s home to a lot of world-class companies – big and small – selling their goods and services around the world, but listed in the UK. Investing in a dividend-paying company can mean your income and capital grow as the company grows – but, obviously, values go up and down! – and neither your growth or income are guaranteed.

The UK has been unloved – versus the US – in recent years, but we think that means the stocks are trading at a significant discount to global peers, and it could be an attractive entry point for long-term investors.

Sarah Coles: Can you tell us what your first pick is?

Emma Wall: I’m gonna start with the ETF – which is the iShares UK Dividend ETF – which offers a low-cost option for tracking the performance of the FTSE Dividend UK+ Index – which is an index that offers exposure to 50 of the highest dividend stocks listed in the UK, while still making sure it’s diversified across multiple sectors.

The sectors it invests most in are financials, consumer staples, and materials. It tracks the benchmark by investing in every stock in that index, which is known as ‘Full replication.’ To help

keep costs down, the team use cash to make large purchases instead of lots of small transactions. This ETF also has the flexibility to use derivatives and securities lending, which adds risk.

Susannah Streeter: What about an investment trust – next?

Emma Wall: The investment trust that we have chosen is City of London Investment Trust – run by Job Curtis – one of the most highly-regarded managers in the sector. The trust has been named as a Dividend Hero by the Association of Investment Companies, which means it has grown its dividend for more than 20 years in a row. But, in fact, this trust has gown its dividend for more than 50 years!

The managers of the trust have the ability to reserve investment gains in previous years to boost dividend payments in years where the underlying companies may cut their payouts. This trust has the flexibility to use gearing (borrowing money to invest) and derivatives, which increases risk.

Sarah Coles: Last but not least – d’you have a fund idea for us?

Emma Wall: Yes – Artemis Income. The trio of highly-regarded fund managers focus on companies that they believe can pay a sustainable level of income, regardless of the economic backdrop. They mostly invest in large UK businesses, but they also invest in some medium-sized and overseas companies when they find great opportunities.

We view this as a more conventional UK equity income fund – given the focus on companies with robust cashflows. This fund takes its charges from capital, which can increase the yield, but does reduce the potential for capital growth.

Before making investment decisions, make sure the investment’s objectives align with your own. Investments should always be held in a diversified portfolio – and ask for advice if you’re not sure what’s right for your circumstances.

Susannah Streeter: You’re listening to Switch Your Money On from Hargreaves Lansdown – and, before we go, there’s time for a quick stat of the week.

We are going to go back to ISAs again – but we’re going to travel around the country with this.

Overall, figures from 2020/2021, show that 42% of adults in England have an ISA, but can you guess the region with the lowest number of ISAs?

Sarah Coles: It’s tricky – ‘cause you have some regions where income is a lot lower than others, but then you have these regions where there’s massive diversification – so that some people have got loads of money, and some people have very little.

I’m gonna go with somewhere – where it tends to have the lowest income – which is the North-East.

Susannah Streeter: It’s the second lowest – I’m afraid! The answer is actually London. It’s one of those areas with wildly differing incomes. It comes in at just under 39% – and, given that we’re recording this in Bristol, we can share that the South-West has the highest proportion of ISA holders – at around 46% – which is likely to owe something to the fact that there’s an older population in the region.

Sarah Coles: [Laughs] I talked myself out of getting that one right! I was swayed by the fact that London tends to have the highest house prices – and the North-East the lowest. Maybe Londoners are spending every penny on a mortgage – so there’s just nothing left to invest.

Susannah Streeter: Well, that is all from us for this time – but, before we go, we do need to remind you that this was recorded on 18th March 2024 and all information was correct at the time of recording.

Sarah Coles: Nothing in this podcast is personal advice – you should seek advice if you’re not sure what’s right for you.

Susannah Streeter: Investments rise and fall in value, so you could get back less than you invest – and past performance is not a guide to the future.

Sarah Coles: And this hasn’t been prepared in accordance with legal requirements designed to promote the independence of investment research and is considered a marketing communication.

Susannah Streeter: Non-independent research is not subject to FCA rules prohibiting dealing ahead of research. However, HL has put controls in place (including dealing restrictions, physical and information barriers) to manage potential conflicts of interest presented by such dealing.

Sarah Coles: You can see our full non-independent research disclosure on our website for more information. So, all that’s left is for us to thank our guests: George, Helen, Sophie, Emma, and our Producer, Elzabeth Hotson.

Susannah Streeter: Thank you very much for listening. We’ll be back again soon – goodbye!