Buy-to-letdown: Unveiling the challenges and pension potential of buy-to-let and alternative income strategies

Susannah Streeter: Hello and welcome to Switch Your Money On. I’m Susannah Streeter – the Head of Money and Markets here at Hargreaves Lansdown and, as usual, I’m with Sarah Coles – the Head of Personal Finance.

Sarah, we both have older teenagers and at the moment their rooms are their castles – but, at some point, hopefully, they’ll want to flee the nest. We do spend an awful lot of time talking about how you never really stop worrying about them – however old they get – especially given that they are entering a world with an awful lot of challenges – not least where they’ll live in the future.

Sarah Coles: Yes, the more you see and hear about the rental market, the more of a worry it is. But it’s not just new renters who have to compete so hard for properties that eat into such a large chunk of their income. It’s also fraught with difficulties for landlords, who are wrestling with everything from tax to new legislation.

Susannah Streeter: So, we thought we’d delve into this from an investment perspective in this episode of the podcast, which we’re calling, ‘Buy to Letdown.’

Sarah Coles: Yes, we’re going to explore some of the changes going on in the industry at the moment – the challenges landlords and tenants are facing – and what this means for everyone in the market. We’ll also speak to Ollie Sherlock – who’s a former Letting Agent and MD of Insurance Goodlord – about life for landlords right now.

So, Ollie, it is an interesting time to be a landlord, isn’t it?

Ollie Sherlock: Isn’t it just – but with great change comes great opportunity.

Susannah Streeter: Thank you very much, Ollie – great to have you on the podcast, and we look forward to finding out more a bit later. We’ll also speak to Helen Morrissey – Head of Retirement Research at HL – about some of the considerations for people considering using a buy-to-let to supplement their retirement income. We’ll speak to Sophie Lund-Yates – our Lead Equity Researcher – about some of the listed companies in this area – and we’ll talk to Emma Wall – our Head of Investment Research and Analysis – who’s been looking at another way to invest for income.

Sarah Coles: So, it’s a challenging time for everybody in the rental market right now. For tenants, rising rates are a real issue. Figures from the ONS in November found devastating rent hikes. Its researchers check rents in Wales, on average, every nine months and, in England, every year. Since the last visit, almost two-thirds of English landlords had hiked the rent, and almost half of those in Wales too – and those rises are eyewatering.

Where rents have risen, they’re up an average of more than 11% in Wales and almost 10% in England.

Susannah Streeter: And it’s not just the cost of rent – there’s also a real struggle to find rental property in the first place. The number of properties available to rent has almost halved since the onset of the pandemic, and Zoopla figures show that the number of tenants chasing each available property has trebled to 30.

Part of the reason for this is that the number of tenants has been growing as property prices have soared, and people are renting later in life. However, a major part of the picture is also landlords selling up.

Sarah Coles: Yes – we’ll talk to Ollie about this in a minute – but landlords are under rising pressure. They face tougher rules that mean they pay more in tax on the way in – with the stamp duty surcharge for second properties. They then pay more tax as they go along – partly because the frozen income tax rates mean higher rents attract more tax – but also because rules around offsetting mortgage interest against tax are now much less generous. Plus, lower capital gains tax thresholds mean more tax on the way out too when they sell.

Susannah Streeter: Yes, and then there’s the prospect of rising costs linked to new legislation. The rules demanding that rental properties are more energy efficient have been pushed back, but are still likely to mean the work needs to be done eventually. Plus, reforms to rental rights – including a ban on no-fault evictions – have been delayed, but are still expected to pass at some point.

Both are positive changes for tenants, but it means more costs are looming for landlords, which means that for some the maths just doesn’t stack up anymore.

Sarah Coles: Yes – those who’ve borrowed to invest are facing rocketing mortgage costs when they come to re-finance, which makes it incredibly difficult to make money from rental property – and, as a result, many of them are getting out. The Simply Business Landlord Report in November found that one in 10 landlords sold at least one property over the previous 12 months, and one in four plan to sell one in the coming year.

Meanwhile, some of those who stay in the rental market may switch to short-term lets and Airbnb for a better yield.

Susannah Streeter: We’ve painted a pretty bleak picture here – so, before we go any further, we should bring in Ollie Sherlock – a former Letting Agent and MD of Insurance Goodlord.

So, Ollie, d’you think this seems to be a fair picture of the lettings industry?

Ollie Sherlock: I think ideas of mass exoduses within the landlord market are somewhat overstated. There’s about 10 million rental properties in the UK – half of which sit within the PRS – PRS being the Private Rental Sector – and, of that, you’ve got about a million accidental landlords. There’s a real difference between some of those landlords wanting to sell and indeed selling. The question then becomes, ‘Who are they selling to?’

So, what is absolutely evident is that there is a question of ‘Confidence’ from the landlord sector, and that is not surprising given the pressures they’ve been under – both from a legislative perspective – from a tax perspective – and we’re on the cusp of the Rental Reform Bill hopefully coming in – or having some clarity of when it’s coming in sometime soon. It’s fair to say that is more tenant-friendly, arguably, than landlord-friendly – although the idea that landlords are leaving en masse, I think, has to be questioned when looking at the data.

We are seeing growth in the rental sector – we’re seeing more rented properties than before. Whether those are enough properties to meet demand is really where some of the pressures then really start adding up for both landlords and for tenants, of course.

Sarah Coles: So, you mentioned that one of the issues is who landlords are selling to – so is there evidence that they’re selling to new landlords, or are some of those leaving the rental sector all together?

Ollie Sherlock: There’s anecdotal evidence that properties are passing from one landlord to another, and we’re waiting on the latest ONS figures to support some of this. But the properties – if they’re being sold, they have to be sold to somebody, and the idea that they all exit the rental market – it wouldn’t make any sense.

Clearly, there’s some landlord-to-landlord activity going on – and, yes, there always some properties that landlords are selling to first-time buyers, for example – but, in terms of the size of the problem, I think this is a question of confidence first – before we see really true detrimental volumes of exiting landlords. There are choices in front of us – we don’t have to go down a path that is ultimately anti-landlord, and I think the job of Government and legislators is to ensure that any change is looking at both of those stakeholders with equal importance – in order to have a sustainable private rental sector.

Susannah Streeter: Do you think that there is more of a draw to short-term letting?

Ollie Sherlock: I think there has been – the idea that you could quite quickly elevate your earnings from your property clearly, to some landlords, is advantageous – but with that comes a whole load of stress and a whole load of other work that you have to do. What we’re seeing – and we’ve seen this north of the border…

In the definition of this conversation, Scotland’s quite a good indicator – because Scotland has gone through some of the legislative change that the Government in England are suggesting that we’re going through – and you can see, in Scotland, there’s been quite material measures on both short-let – and the licensing registration of those landlords – which is looking like it’s coming into England as well – but also in some of the legislative change in reform – and, arguably, that’s not gone very well for Scotland. Rents have soared as a result of things like rental caps, for example – which seems strange to say. ‘You’ve capped the rents, so why is it increasing?’ But, in reality, the rental cap doesn’t affect the time in-between a tenancy, so we’re seeing properties come back on the market at a much higher rate.

The point of all of these kind of changes – or amendments – are really there to try and serve a fairer private rental sector – and, one could argue, if they’re having a detrimental effect to landlords, that’s only getting passed onto tenants too, and landlords are in somewhat an impossible situation. They’re the same as you and I as tenants – we have all been under pressure from the cost of living perspective – and you noted the pressure on highly leveraged landlords – and that is especially true. It is a very, very tough time for anybody that’s highly leveraged against a property, let alone a number of properties – but, of course, interest rates have risen quite quickly, and that cost either has to be passed on, or we run the risk of losing that property within the private rental sector – and, ultimately, for tenants in a world where supply is very much behind demand, that is not a great outcome either.

Sarah Coles: I know you obviously speak to landlords every day – d’you feel that they’re under more pressure – and they’re less confident than they have been for a long time – or is this something that goes in cycles?

Ollie Sherlock: We deal with both landlords and letting agents. We recognise through our State of the Industry Lettings Report – which is available on our website. We can see that there’s a level of pessimism around what the future holds – and that’s proven through the surveys that we’ve conducted of both landlords and letting agents.

Interestingly, it’s exactly the same for tenants too. Nobody’s feeling wildly confident at the moment! – it’s pretty tough-going. We recognise that there’s pressures there. What we’re seeing in more recent weeks, funnily enough – when we talk about landlords wanting to sell – we can see there’s plenty of examples of that – we can see them in front of us – but, actually, they’re struggling to sell their properties, and then they’re coming back onto the rental market again.

So, in the absence of a very buoyant sales market, the idea of wanting to sell – and actually selling – are two very different things.

Susannah Streeter: Landlords haven’t always had the best PR, but they really are vital for the housing landscape to work properly, aren’t they?

Ollie Sherlock: Absolutely. The failure to recognise their importance – and understand the way that the ecosystem survives – and, dare I say it, hopefully prospers – has been a real error in the last decade – if not two.

We’ve had a housing crisis in this country for some time. There’s plenty of reports [laughs] in media out there highlighting the fact that Government have failed to meet their own housing targets – in terms of building new homes. That means that actually we’re more reliant on the existing landlords within this space – and, personally, I think we need to ensure we’re valuing them in a way that allows them to be proactive – allows them to support people to live in homes – and not so far that we’re buying that [laughs], but one could argue that the taxation rollbacks introduced by George Osbourne have been clearly detrimental to landlords’ confidence – and their ability to profiteer from this process – which, at the end of the day, shouldn’t be a bad thing but ultimately it’s put more and more pressure on landlords being able to supply those homes.

In the absence of the Government doing that, I would argue that the private rental sector has stepped in – and landlords have stepped in to support housing in this country to a degree that, if we’re not careful, is going to run out through over legislation and detrimental legislation to landlords.

Sarah Coles: If you were in charge, is there one thing that you would do that would really help both landlords and tenants? D’you think there’s a single magic bullet, or d’you think that it’s gonna take quite a lot of change to current plans in order for things to even out nicely?

Ollie Sherlock: The simple answer is, ‘Build more homes.’

We do not have enough homes in this country to house the population. If we can improve the level of home-building, that will help alleviate the problem. It’s complex to deliver that – multiple governments have failed – and I think the prioritisation of that alone would be my single focus.

It’s worth pointing out that there’s still around 150-odd thousand homes being built each year – and some of these go into the rental sector. Some data suggests up to two-thirds of them go into the rental sector.

So, we are seeing some growth through that – and, in context of the conversation about landlords leaving, we have to look towards, ‘What’s the net effect of that?’ – and I still believe that we’re seeing a growth in rental properties within the country.

Now, I don’t think that’s enough to meet demand. I think we’ve got to build more homes – and, under that, there’s probably another three or four big things we have to do in order to support them to come through to the rental sector and supply affordable housing for individuals.

Susannah Streeter: Okay, Ollie – there is so much to think about there. Really great to have you on the podcast to give us your perspectives.

Ollie Sherlock: Thank you for the opportunity – and interesting questions. Quite a lot to unpack there, actually.

Susannah Streeter: So, there are still clearly plenty of people who think a Buy to Let is a potential investment, but it’s not just landlords who are profiting from the market – there’s also plenty of listed companies for whom this is their business.

So, let’s bring in Sophie Lund-Yates now – and, Sophie, this week, you’ve been looking at some names that are heavily exposed to the UK property market more generally. Who’s up first?

Sophie Lund-Yates: Hi, Susannah – I have, indeed. So, first up, is estate agent – Savills.

Now, what a lot of people don’t know about this famous UK brand is that Savills actually operates through a network of offices, not only in the United Kingdom, but across Europe, Asia Pacific, North America, Africa and the Middle East. It also does more than standard residential property estate agent work – so it also covers office, industrial, retail, leisure, healthcare, rural and hotel property, and mixed-use development schemes.

Now, other strings to its bow – on the business front – are Transaction Advisory, Consultancy, Property and Facilities Management, and Investment Management.

The past 12 months have seen Savills’ valuation come under pressure to the tune of about 14%. That will partly be a reaction to concerns over the broader housing market in the context of mortgages becoming less affordable. The other side of that coin is that Savills has been vocal about the expected strength of the rental market in the medium term because of a significant shortage of properties.

Savills’ fortunes will broadly track that of the economy because, if times are prosperous, so too are property transactions, and vice versa. But the extra strings to its bow – including Facilities Management – help cushion it from some of the blows – as does its strong and well trusted brand. Tough times can kill weaker players and actually boost the position of bigger ones – but, of course, only time will tell how the housing market will shake out next year.

Sarah Coles: And what about Rightmove? It’s similar to an estate agent, but there are some important differences, aren’t there?

Sophie Lund-Yates: Absolutely. So, Rightmove isn’t so concerned about what the property market is doing – because it’s not directly affected by how many houses are being bought and sold. It’s more interested in whether estate agents keep paying their fees to advertise on Rightmove, which has become a bit of a non-negotiable expense for estate agents.

Now, for Rightmove, first-half revenue rose 10% to £179.5m, helped partly by estate agent branches paying for better advertising packages and additional digital products.

I’d say there’s more room to run before Rightmove taps out how much it can squeeze from estate agents, but there will come a limit. The broader issue is how many estate agent branches there are. The numbers are going down, partly because of challenges to the traditional names, but – in the case of a very steep market downturn – this could also have an effect.

For now, Rightmove’s business model is one that remains attractive because it essentially runs a website. So, underlying operating margins are an impressive 74%, which is a serious asset. As always, remember there are no guarantees.

Susannah Streeter: Okay, so that’s Rightmove. What’s the final company this week?

Sophie Lund-Yates: So, looking at this one through a different lens. If we think that Savills is right – and that the rental market has a serious supply problem – one that will need fixing and, therefore, that we could see new properties coming onto the market as the powers that be hopefully try and fix this issue – it could feed into the hands of housebuilders.

There is a serious lack of supply – as we’ve talked about – and that helps underpin demand for houses over the long run. I’ve talked about housebuilders a few times, but this week – to mix it up – I’ve had a look at Vistry.

Vistry’s average weekly sales rate since 1 July has been 0.60, down from 0.64 last year. This slowdown over the summer months was driven by the high-interest rate environment and inflationary cost pressures taking their toll on household income.

The group has not benefitted from the usual seasonal increase in private sales since September that it had expected – despite the continued use of buyer incentives. The order book stands at £4.3bn with 100% of private units already sold.

Now, for a bit of the all-important balance sheet – net debt is expected to fall from £328.7m at the half-year mark to around £100m by the end of this year.

Vistry is a bit different too. The Housebuilding division is set to be wound up by the end of this financial year – instead it will be more focused on its Partnerships business.

Partnerships specialises in providing affordable housing by teaming up with local authorities and housing associations. These partners foot most of the bill, which reduces risk and allows Vistry to operate as a capital-light business. For various reasons, margins are coming under pressure though, partly because of the effect of selling houses as part of bulk deals. But volume uplifts are hopefully going to offset most of this, and a bigger scale means better terms with suppliers.

So, as I said, bit of a different angle to end on, but a core issue with Buy to Let is lack of supply, and that includes a squeeze at the social-housing end of the spectrum. Overall, Vistry’s strategy shift makes sense, but there’s a lot of work to be done.

Sarah Coles: Thanks, Sophie – there’s clearly a lot of companies working in this area.

However, for plenty more, it’s more of a cottage industry with individuals going into Buy to Let in the hope of making money. This is one option people might consider to fund retirement, so we thought it would be a good idea to talk to Helen Morrissey a little about this – and some of the potential issues people can face.

Hi, Helen.

Helen Morrissey: Hello – it’s always lovely to be back on the podcast.

Susannah Streeter: It’s lovely to have you with us, Helen.

So, when people think about Buy to Let – almost as a substitute for pensions in their retirement planning – what are the issues with this?

Helen Morrissey: Thanks, Susannah.

There’s a few issues that do need to be considered. The first one is definitely diversification. So, if you’re invested in the default fund in your pension, then you will be invested across geographies and asset classes. The idea is that, when some areas – or asset classes – underperform, others do better, and this has something of a cushioning effect on performance.

Whereas, if you’re invested wholly in buy-to-let property, then you’re in a single asset class, and your own home will mean you have even more exposure to that asset. The cost of property might mean you need to put all your eggs in one basket with a single rental property.

You may have seen stellar house-price growth in recent years, but there are always downturns in the property market at some point – and, if this happens when you need to sell up, your whole portfolio will lose value. This is particularly the case if your buy-to-lets are located close to your own home, and this could have a big impact on your retirement plans.

Sarah Coles: That’s a sobering thought – and I guess you could run into further trouble if you’re unable to sell your properties when you need to as well?

Helen Morrissey: Exactly. We’re seeing properties take longer to sell, and sellers are increasingly having to slash their asking prices to get a sale. We’re in a very different market to the one we’ve been used to and if you needed the money quickly then you might find that you struggle.

Susannah Streeter: Are there any more day-to-day issues someone needs to consider if they’re thinking of using Buy to Let to fund their retirement?

Helen Morrissey: Yes, there are. The first thing I would say is that Buy to Let can prove more expensive than you think. You may need to hire letting agents to manage the property if you don’t have the time to do it yourself. You will also need to budget for things like repairs and decorating as well as having to cover your costs for periods of time when the property isn’t let to a tenant. You might find life as a buy-to-let landlord makes for a much more stressful retirement than you bargained for. Also, let’s not forget that the fees that come with buying and selling properties – such as stamp duty, legal fees, etc – can run into many thousands of pounds.

Sarah Coles: Thanks, Helen – there’s loads to think of there.

So, our house view – as you’ve heard from Helen – is that Buy to Let is not without its challenges. So, if you’re looking for a different source of income – no guarantees! – here’s Emma Wall talking to Artemis High Income Fund Manager, Jack Holmes, about generating income from investments.

Emma Wall: So, when it comes to investing, we think there are better sources of income than property, which means I’m turning to Jack.

Hi, Jack.

Jack Holmes: Hi, there.

Emma Wall: Let’s talk about all things ‘Income.’ What sort of asset classes are you investing in – and sub-asset classes – when you are building a portfolio designated for high income?

Jack Holmes: It’s a great question – and, to be honest, it’s probably one that has changed a little bit over the last few years. We’ve gone from a very low interest-rate environment to a much higher interest-rate environment, so that really has changed quite a lot over the last two or three years.

The basis of the way that we run the high income fund – or the core of it – is in bonds. So, we have 80% plus of the fund in bonds – that stretches everywhere from things like government bonds, through to the riskier end of things, through to high-yield bonds – on the other side – and then we do also have a small segment which is dedicated to dividend-paying equities as well – just to provide some additional income on the side as well.

Emma Wall: To give us an illustration of quite how much the market has changed – obviously, we’re speaking point-in-time here, so the yields are accurate at the time of talking – but, couple of years ago, what constituted high income versus now? Pretty different, right?

Jack Holmes: Yeah – 100%. So, if I look back - not that long ago – two-and-a-half years ago – 10-year government bonds – whether they’re European Government bonds – UK Government bonds – yielded either zero or actually negative, which is a slightly hard concept to grasp, but really had a very, very low level of yields. Today, that landscape has changed radically.

So, if I look at 10-year UK Government – or US Government bonds today – they’re both yielding about 4%. It’s not an incredibly high yield, but it is quite an attractive yield for a security that is fundamentally at the very, very lowest-risk end of the spectrum. Then, if I look at increasing the risk slightly – and, by risk, I mean things like credit risk – so the chance of a company failing to pay a bond back… If I look at something like high yield – high yield today – depending on which kind of particular flavour you go for – between 8% and 9%.

If I look back to two-and-a-half years, that was 3% to 4%. So, there’s been a really significant change over that period – and, frankly, from an income investor’s perspective, I think it’s a very exciting time to be looking at these securities because, frankly, for the first time in a decade, you’re getting really, really compelling forward-looking total returns.

Emma Wall: Now, investing 101 would teach us that the higher the yield, the higher the risk. Is that true at the moment? Of course, no guarantees – but are these yields looking the way they are because they carry a lot of, not just individual issuer risk, but also market risk – and basically asking, ‘Are we going into recession next year?’ – and that’s [laughs] why you’re seeing such attractive offers around?

Jack Holmes: I think we can talk about the risks that are embedded – and how that would look if we did go into a recessionary environment next year – and I think, if we do that, we can see that actually a lot of the worries and the premium – in terms of higher yields that we’re getting as investors today – frankly, aren’t really justified when you consider the difference between today and two-and-a-half years ago.

I think it’s probably likely that economic activity will slow going into the next year – but, whenever I look at things like whether that’s investment grade bonds which have very, very low levels of default probability of credit risk within them – even if I look at higher quality high yield, which is where I focus at the moment – that’s an area where actually the level of default risk – even if you are going into a recession – even if you are going into a very negative economic backdrop – actually, we have to remember these are securities that these companies need to pay back. This isn’t an optional thing – this isn’t a dividend that can be switched on and off for, say, an equity – this is a mandatory payment that they need to make. So, if they fail to pay us back as lenders, then frankly we get to take their business from them.

So, it’s a very high hurdle to cross over before you actually experience a loss of the type that we’re talking about in terms of a capital loss and a failure to pay the interest – and I think that’s a very, very important thing to highlight. But the other thing is really that degree of risk spectrum. I think a lot of people talk about ‘Credit,’ and ‘Corporate bonds,’ and ‘High yield’ as being a very homogenous type of risk – and I think that fails to appreciate that actually there’s a huge variety of things going on underneath the surface – and actually, by excluding some of the riskier areas, you can massively reduce your level of downside without actually – especially in today’s environment – having to give up a huge amount of yield.

Emma Wall: Let’s finish by talking about the yield curve [laughs]! The expectation from the market about what central banks – on both sides of the pond – are going to do over the next 12 months – because the ‘Higher for longer’ rhetoric has been very consistent from both the Fed and the Bank of England.

What’s your views on that? – and how d’you interpret that and those forecasts into your investment selections?

Jack Holmes: We’re already at the high-end of interest rates, so it’s unlikely – in my view – that interest rates go meaningfully higher from where we are today – so, therefore, if you like, the movement – or potential movement – is actually interest rates cutting – and that would tend to be in an environment where economic activity has slowed – where some of the inflationary pressures that we’ve seen over the last few years – which we have already started to see those normalising – that continues that trend of going towards more normal levels, but that doesn’t actually mean that the outlook is necessarily that negative, even if interest rates stay high.

If I look at the high-yield market over the last year, the high-yield market basically has not changed in terms of the yield that’s available to investors. So, it’s been about 8.5%. There’s been no interest rates coming down – things getting easier – but that asset class has delivered a total return of just over 8.5%.

So, you don’t actually need things to go meaningfully better in order for, actually – because of some of these high yields that, frankly, just through trundling along – just through continuously servicing that debt – you, as an investor, get very, very attractive total returns even without a positive thing happening in terms of interest rates coming down.

If interest rates did come down, I think what you’re going to see is particularly the less than five-year maturity part of the yield curve. I think that is going to be the area where you’re going to see big, big movements down in terms of yields – but, from my perspective, that’s a great thing as an investor because that means that you get higher total returns because the price is going to increase as that yield falls.

So, I think this is actually a very, very attractive time to be looking at the market – at the bond market.

Emma Wall: Jack, thank you very much.

Jack Holmes: Thank you.

Susannah Streeter: And that was Emma Wall talking to Jack Holmes. You’re listening to Switch Your Money On from Hargreaves Lansdown. And now, to end this episode, we have a quick brainteaser.

So, Sarah, when we think of landlords, we don’t always think of royalty, but I thought I’d take this opportunity to explore a bit of King Charles’ property portfolio. Now, I should start by saying that most of his property portfolio is in fact owned by The Crown Estate – the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall. Some are held in the trust for the King, and some are held by foundations he set up – so it’s not quite the same as the King owning all of it outright but, that aside, there are some impressive estates in there – some of which come with a great deal of housing.

So, Sandringham comes with houses in both Flitcham and Anmer – he even owns the freehold to the pub in Anmer. So, my question is – how can you tell if a property in these villages is owned by The Crown? Because I know it’s quite a hard question, Sarah – and I’m very kind to you – I do have some options.

Sarah Coles: Thank you, Susannah – you’re very generous.

Susannah Streeter: You’re welcome.

So, is it the colour of the front door – is there a crown moulded into the cast iron guttering – or are they all named after members of the Royal Family?

Sarah Coles: [Laughs] You’re right – that is a particularly hard question. I’d like to think they’re named after members of the Royal Family – so you could be claim to be living in Prince Edward – or next door to Queen Elizabeth! I’m going to go with that one.

Susannah Streeter: Sadly not. It’s the fact they all have the same blue front door, which was reportedly chosen by the Queen Mother – although some of them are named after royal-related things – like the Diamond Jubilee or Queen Victoria – but they’re not all named after royals.

Sarah Coles: That just feels like a missed opportunity to me.

Susannah Streeter: I used to have a blue front door – but now it’s bright pink – and it’s [laughs] being called ‘The Barbie House’ on the street – but I do have to stress, the colour choice was ALL down to my husband.

That’s all from us for this time – but, before we go, we do need to remind you that this was recorded on December 8th 2023, and all information was correct at the time of recording.

Sarah Coles: Nothing in this podcast is personal advice – you should seek advice if you’re not sure what’s right for you. Investments rise and fall in value – so you could get back less than you invest – and past performance is not a guide to the future.

Susannah Streeter: Yes, this is not advice or a recommendation to buy, sell or hold any investment. No view is given on the present or future value – or price of any investment – and investors should form their own view on any proposed investment.

Sarah Coles: And this hasn’t been prepared in accordance with legal requirements designed to promote the independence of investment research and is considered a marketing communication.

Susannah Streeter: Non-independent research is not subject to FCA rules prohibiting dealing ahead of research. However, HL has put controls in place – including dealing restrictions, physical and information barriers – to manage potential conflicts of interest presented by such dealing.

Sarah Coles: You can see our full non-independent research disclosure on our website for more information. So, all that’s left is for me to thank our guests – Ollie, Helen, Sophie, Emma, Jack, and our Producer, Elizabeth Hotson.

Susannah Streeter: Thank you so much for listening. We’ll be back again soon – goodbye!